Comments on Comics Comics: Cage Match #2: Heavy Liquid (1999-2000)

man, T-dog, let it go, daddy-o!Does that Luger tha...

2008-02-21T11:43:00.000-05:00

man, T-dog, let it go, daddy-o!

Does that Luger that the Red Skull is brandishing in Cap #191 really shoot bullets? It looks like its made out of shiny cardboard.

Please don't make me pull out the scanner to post ...

2008-02-21T08:56:00.000-05:00

Please don't make me pull out the scanner to post the scene three pages later, where Rodan uses a broom to close the same, perfectly intact window.

I really need to stop arguing about this...

reading the scene with the window, I just figured ...

2008-02-20T15:38:00.000-05:00

reading the scene with the window, I just figured he shifted his weight in trying to open it and the whole thing fell through, taking him with it.

storytelling flaws are important to address but it...

2008-02-20T12:52:00.000-05:00

storytelling flaws are important to address but its not like one should not go thru the narrative with a comb and nitpick. If the flow is stopped, fine. Yes, a problem.

Hey Dustin --I agree with a lot of what you've jus...

2008-02-20T11:12:00.000-05:00

Hey Dustin --

I agree with a lot of what you've just said (visual nerve, etc.), and also that this might not have been the best Pope book for our discussion, but I disagree when you seem to say that these kinds of storytelling flaws aren't important in this kind of story.

On the contrary, I wouldn't go to Philip Roth expecting well-executed action scenes, but would absolutely expect Frank Herbert and Robert Heinlein to get that kind of detail right. That's a big part of what they have to offer in the first place!

But it's not such a big deal that I want to keep going over and over it, so I'll stop now. Except to reiterate that I think you're absolutely right about the visual strengths of the comic.

This seems like a genre-specific argument, focusin...

2008-02-20T11:00:00.000-05:00

This seems like a genre-specific argument, focusing on this gaff in storytelling. For instance, I just finished Powr Mastrs last week--I think I'm the last one--and I LOVED it, but it would never occur to me to go through and nitpick on continuity from panel-to-panel, because it just isn't that kind of comic.

Heavy Liquid to me is, first and foremost, a highly stylized sci-fi comic, and so I read it differently than I might Powr Mastrs or Hellboy or Invisibles. The same as I'd read Dune or Robert Heinlein with a different set of expectations and conditions for "success" than I would Philip Roth or John Irving.

I guess what I'm saying is that visually, Heavy Liquid satisfies on every level for me. It's weird palette and format (a $5.95 Vertigo creator-owned miniseries?) were bizarre at the time it came out, and it was pretty exciting. In retrospect, the story is not as satisfying as Pope's other stuff, but it's preceded by THB itself, his I'm-22-at-the-height-of-my-creative-powers story, and followed up by 100%, his post-9-11 story. So it's probably the weakest narrative in his body of work. But what has always been exciting about it is the visual verve. I mean, come on--clowns with Guernica masks? I would pee my pants immediately.

pmsThe window thing isn't that big of a deal but y...

2008-02-20T10:22:00.000-05:00

pms
The window thing isn't that big of a deal but yes, everyone is right, its weird, but, c'mon, tell it to Jack Kirby. It happens.

I've been watching a lot of sctv so this was reall...

2008-02-20T10:20:00.000-05:00

I've been watching a lot of sctv so this was really funny,

" let's move on...

Specifically to the scene in "Strange Brew" where the dog rolls up the roof, like a ninja. Who can explain that?"

Okay, okay. I rescind on the window thing. I like ...

2008-02-20T01:13:00.000-05:00

Okay, okay. I rescind on the window thing. I like my explaination, but there's nothing that can be done to save it- especially since Rodan's closing of the window a couple of pages later means the window didn't break, and he must have fallen thorough that small opening... let's move on...

Specifically to the scene in "Strange Brew" where the dog rolls up the roof, like a ninja. Who can explain that? Also, Greedo shot first.

Also, thanks for the Fun Home/ Presepolis/ Blankets comment. You're my new hero!

I tried to skim through this Cage Match but it mad...

2008-02-19T23:39:00.000-05:00

I tried to skim through this Cage Match but it made my head spin.

Kinda like how I remember THB.

Just to be helpful after derailing a bit with cave...

2008-02-19T23:14:00.000-05:00

Just to be helpful after derailing a bit with cave stuff, i took a look at that roof cave in, and t hodler is on the money. shit makes no sense whatsoever.

(shrug) those things aren't that sturdy, those par...

2008-02-19T19:34:00.000-05:00

(shrug) those things aren't that sturdy, those paris roofs It would take an extra half page to show all the close-ups, it's not the same kind of thing as the cab scene in #1, not as important. its a device. works fine.

Frank. Anybody. Please explain how he fell through...

2008-02-19T19:29:00.000-05:00

Frank. Anybody. Please explain how he fell through that window. I would love to be proven wrong on this one, believe me. It's driving me crazy.

okay okay save the birthday party arguments, try a...

2008-02-19T19:06:00.000-05:00

okay okay save the birthday party arguments, try and stay on target here... it's a decent argument but it's Dan's comparison that got us here in the first place!

"it's a comic book" is not dismissive. not at all. fast and loose. yes, yes.

I didn't riff on the window scene cuz it didn't seem like a snag to me...

Dustin:Don't get me wrong, Nick Cave is pimp fanta...

2008-02-19T18:37:00.000-05:00

Dustin:
Don't get me wrong, Nick Cave is pimp fantastic in Ghost of the Civil Dead, but Abattoir seriously blows. Warren Ellis (the music one) is undeniable.

Grinderman: Paul Pope drawing Batman.

Nick Cave solo: Paul Pope drawing Diesel ads and close ups of vaginas.

Birthday Party: puke

The back of that THB collection is going to read: ...

2008-02-19T18:30:00.000-05:00

The back of that THB collection is going to read: "In America, Paul Pope is known as the Nick Cave of comics." Nadel just made Pope's day. Rock on!

I wanted to comment about Frank's "it's a comic bo...

2008-02-19T18:09:00.000-05:00

I wanted to comment about Frank's "it's a comic book" comment, which seems pretty appropriate if we're going to talk about "narrative fumbles" of a "how'd he fall through that window" variety.

I like thinking that saying "It's a comic book" for something like that isn't dismissive or indicative of low expectations in the way that someone saying "we don't go to comic books for their views about life" would be. It's instead saying that all sorts of great comics play sort of fast and loose with things like narrative progression and three-act structure, from Jimbo to Paradax to Casanova or whatever. With strips, it's even more pronounced.

Maybe if we're talking about something like the falling through a window thing, we're talking more about visual storytelling, and this manifesto is misplaced. It's probably misguided if directed at Tim, at any rate. Just wanted to put it out there.

Anyway. What do you think about the decision to put THB out in book form in color?

Hey Colin --Thanks for commenting. It's never too ...

2008-02-19T17:50:00.000-05:00

Hey Colin --

Thanks for commenting. It's never too late!

I hear you on the window scene, and I can almost buy that explanation, but it's not that we don't see exactly how S fell through the window that bothers me -- it's that, judging from the way the window is positioned and constructed, I don't see how it's possible for him to fall through it at all! I mean, it looks like to fall through that gap, you'd have to have forced your body through a pretty narrow gap, and S doesn't look even close. Even if he slipped, he wouldn't fall through. I suppose he could've broken through the glass (though that doesn't look possible either from his position), but we don't see any broken glass in the following panel... Maybe I'm missing something. It wouldn't be the first time.

Admittedly, this isn't that big a deal in isolation, but on a pretty regular clip (I'd say at least once, often two or three times an issue), Heavy Liquid features these kinds of flubs.

So ... whatever. It's certainly possible to disagree about the importance of this, but this kind of thing pulls me out of the story every time.

Dan- I understand your comparison of Pope to Cave,...

2008-02-19T17:01:00.000-05:00

Dan- I understand your comparison of Pope to Cave, and agree with you. But while I think Cave is boring, I like Pope. This is because I think there's more to Pope than the obvious rockstar posturing- namely, fun action sequences and an inventive (for mainstream American comics) illustration style. I understand your point, but I think there's more to talk about here than that. It seems like you came to a knife fight with a loaded gun. If I had to sum your thoughts about PP/Heavy Liquid up in two words they would be "violently dismissive", which seems an odd disposition for a prominent comic commentator to have.

Tim- RE: Pope's instances of bad storytelling. I agree with you on the car scene. I disagree with you however, on the scene where S falls through the window. I remember when I first read it thinking that Pope had made this confusing on purpose, to replicate the cognitive dissonance S was feeling. Anytime I've experienced a bad accident like that it was a blur, and I didn't know what had happened until it was over, much the way Pope depicts it here.
I actually appreciate this type of experimental storytelling, even if it fails often, over more "sturdy" methods like Toth's.

Hope this isn't too late to be cared about.

Great Scott! That comment about Nick Cave and his...

2008-02-19T14:57:00.000-05:00

Great Scott! That comment about Nick Cave and his blowing is only exacerbated by the immediate endorsement of Grinderman.

Although that is obviously a completely different Cage Match altogether, lest this turn into a typical discussion hijacking. But oh! the humanity!

Good cage match, gents. I have to say I'm also eag...

2008-02-19T14:46:00.000-05:00

Good cage match, gents. I have to say I'm also eager to read your thoughts on Persepolis.

I'm only interested in a Persepolis cage match if ...

2008-02-19T13:53:00.000-05:00

I'm only interested in a Persepolis cage match if it's just constant repetition of the word lame and the phrase who cares.

While reading the plot synopsis I realized that, although i remember liking the art, I must not have actually read Heavy Liquid.

And solo Nick Cave blows, but Grinderman is totally sweet.

I think that is a big part of the appeal of these ...

2008-02-19T11:18:00.000-05:00

I think that is a big part of the appeal of these comics for me.

I moved to NY in 98, around the same time as PP, and the story reads as a bit of a love letter to NY, from the perspective of someone who hasn't been here that long.

sounds good to me Holden.Yeah, the city, NYC is de...

2008-02-19T11:06:00.000-05:00

sounds good to me Holden.

Yeah, the city, NYC is depicted quite soothingly and energetically thru-out the story. Really real for anyone who's ever spent time in NYC.

The thing I was thinking about last nite is that this story really does capture a moment tho' in youth, or young adulthood, and reflects itself, its own fumbles and all. I'm sure PP wouldn't make all the same choices now and thats whats cool about this work: how that moment is preserved.

I re-read a few issues of this last night. I'm goi...

2008-02-19T10:58:00.000-05:00

I re-read a few issues of this last night. I'm going to rip off Frank's note style:

+ Pope really captures a cluttered city accurately. One of my favorite things about him is his ability to render buildings with the right amount of detail. If you look carefully, they are never straight and the details are never in line with each other, but they really FEEL like buildings looming over you. Adding more detail, or ruling them out would actually take the reader out of the moment. They have a solid physicality. The opening on the book on the LES is great. The cab in issue one is cluttered in a great way that feels very physical and authentic.

+ His compositions are really effective. I love how Luna is off to the left on the bottom of page 13. He really lends weight to what she is saying by pushing her off to the side and letting the speech balloon linger in the middle. I also love how he shows the explosion on page 71 from below and down the block.

- S's addiction feels more like recreation. Since this is an important part of the book, it's a pretty big fumble. When he's in the tub drinking wine after being all upset about hearing about Rodan, why wouldn't he comfort himself with some Heavy Liquid instead?. It rings false to me. The scenes where he is high are very successful though. It works as a druggy moment, but I don't feel like he NEEDS it. Just likes it. There's a big difference.

+ I think this probably reads better as issues. I prefer to get all Paul's stuff in issues, mostly because I can't wait, but I like the packaging of these. I think there's something to be said for his getting Vertigo to publish 5 thick, 2 color, ad-free issues. I also love the 2 covers. I found that I consistently liked the "back covers" more. Not sure why.

- I think that car scene is messed up because he zooms in on the cab and the thug as the car is supposed to be speeding away. They should both get smaller, not bigger there, and if one gets zoomed in on, the other should be pulled back from even more.